The reason the imbalance happen

Discussion in 'Speakers‘ Corner' started by rance_1983, Oct 3, 2018.

Dear forum reader,

if you’d like to actively participate on the forum by joining discussions or starting your own threads or topics, please log into the game first. If you do not have a game account, you will need to register for one. We look forward to your next visit! CLICK HERE
  1. rance_1983

    rance_1983 Someday Author

    Lets start with the imbalance

    The damage of level 55 heroes is far too high for the defense in heroes and monsters on the highest of difficulties in any world and pvp and it only takes seconds to beat the most tanky enemies. You gave every class the ability to have gold stats, base damage on most of the gear, transfers of damage up to 300% and now everyone can possibly get up to 38,000 base damage with no essence when back at level 50 the Steam Mechanicus class had 10,000 with 2 hand then at level 55 with 1 hand Dragonknights got the same how did you even do that.

    The role of all classes has changed to be the same as the Spellweaver with little difference between stats. The real reason why it's boring to some players is because you took action out of the game by making op parallel unique 2 hand sets like q7 set that gives a hero 150% damage boost when they already have 20 or 30,000 base. If you ask me DSO should change items to look like they were at level 45 where it was all about enchantments and bonuses and everyone had enough power and we didn't have to worry about if we were going to get the maximum.

    The items need to keep transfers but lower those stats way down and get rid of all or some of that base damage on non-weapon items. If you bring the new buffs, tonics, and elixirs they will be useless with this unnecessary power that's making the game super easy. If you don't lower this massive attack power the future will much easier.

    The classes role

    Spellweavers' specialty is damage. They deal far more damage than any other class, and their elemental attacks bypasses much of the armor values of their enemies. However, Spellweaver are most vulnerable when attacked directly.

    Dragonknights' specialty is defense. They are able to take much more damage from enemies than other classes, and that's crucial, since they must get into melee range of the enemy to deal damage. In a group, Dragonknights have the tank role. They absorb high levels of damage, while allowing fellow group member to deal their damage.

    The role of a Ranger in a group is very often discussed by the players. The unofficial Ranger's role in a group is "multi-role" or "offensive support". Rangers have the highest Crowd Control of all classes, and are a great complement for the group. Even if the tank needs to disengage because of low health, the Ranger can use his/her skills to disable the enemies long enough for the tank to replenish and get back to his function, or give time to the Spellweavers to deal as much damage as possible.
    This fluidity allows for a more flexible character build than the Dragonknight or Spellweaver. A ranger can be a 'tank ranger' that uses melee skills more heavily and has a lot of speed, HP and armor. Another ranger build, the 'artillery ranger' will focus more on long-range combat and has more critical hit precentage and damage from a distance.
    Tank Ranger:
    Carries a shortbow (improves melee speed), shield (block and better armor), and focuses on slowing down enemies from afar before settling into a 'tank' role like that of the Dragonknight. The Ranger, thus, acts more like Dragonknight relief and/or support.
    Artillery Ranger:
    Carries a longbow (more damage), quiver (high critical hit), and focuses on dealing high amounts of damage with long-distance shots and wolves in tandem with Spellweavers. The Ranger, thus, acts as Spellweaver support and stays away from melee.

    Steam Mechanicus deals big damage too with 2 hand at long-range but they can use turrets to deal damage while moving to avoid it or use a shield with 1 hand to become a tank damage dealer at mid-range. This class also has turrets to support classes with defense.
  2. bezryl

    bezryl Active Author

    if you are looking to lower the dmg overall thats not going to help ANYTHING but make it worse for newer players....yes there is a huge gap between new and veteran players and that is ok, they spent the time and effort to get those stats and are crazy strong as they should be.

    dso is not and never has been a game were everyone is *equal* if we are all equal and have the *same power* i would be done with the game because there would be no reason to play, no progression ya know?

    far as your view on class *roles* ill have to dissagree, but might as well share my view

    mage:nice crowd control,*burst dmg* so very good at cleaning maps

    ranger:same as mage except them damn wolfs are always getting in the way blocking my movement:(

    as a dwarf they are both nice to duo with, another dwarf i HATE playing with since it seems they dont understand tesla dont stack...

    the part you mentioned about dwarfs moving around while turets do the dmg is basicly right, but support? i have yet to see another dwarf using tactical turet and never use it myself, unused skill outside of 5v5 for the most part

    dragonknights: PLEASE stop this all dks must tank crap, yes they can and it is nice on higher modes(inf2-3) but even then mostly just the boss. This is a problem for me, because whenever im doing content that a tank isnt needed for if any dk wants to join my group(99%) of the time they are tank it is just adding hp to the mobs.

    this leaves me in a bad situation were i either decline all dks from my group or accept them and make the mobs harder for no reason,
    its not really fair to them i guess?

    another situation i see happen alot is if im playing with a tank friend a dk will aply we accept them and they are a tank also. even if we ask them to swich to 2h they dont..

    something really needs to happen with the dks, seperate them into 2 classes 1 focused on defensive and the other dmg a berserker or something so you know what you are getting a tank or dmg. you could even give them 2 different talent trees based on defensive(tank) or dmg(berserker) playstyles and specify what they are currently in when they aply to groups?
    rooki85 likes this.
  3. rance_1983

    rance_1983 Someday Author

    If they lower the damage to where it is balanced than how will that hurt anyone? What happen to using skill? What happen to buffs and essence, wisdom and group power to make things easier instead of depending on unnecessary amounts of damage and critical damage and needing little skill. All or most players will agree that level 45 and under were the best times for pvp and pve but, I guess nobody sees what the big problem is now or just doesn't know where to start fixing things.
  4. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Before I take the amount of time necessary to address the number of issues in your post, do you understand the nature of "Power Creep" in video games?
  5. rance_1983

    rance_1983 Someday Author

    Before I take the amount of time necessary to tell you something I like to say you can call your ranger DrPierce, DrDoom, DrWolf, DrShot, DrPoison, DrBoom or what you said but you better get on it now before somebody gets it. First, I want to say where am, I wrong in wanting things to be fair, fun, necessary and challenging like other games? Should they increase defenses instead and do nothing else? Second the roles come from Drakensangwiki not me and third it would be better for you to get to the point because you don't know if anyone was going to be here later.
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
  6. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    For a start
    rangers have the least or no crowd control at all.

    I am not sure if ypu are talking PvE or PvP ... i guess you are talking PvE.
    No one cares if there is a class slightly more powerful than the others in PvE. The problem starts in PvP where no one wants to lose.
    The current PvP is mess and that is by design ... it is not a coincidence.
    There is a term in military language "false flag attack" ... where someone is starting a covert operation in order to throw the blame on another one and start an operation/war against them. (USS Liberty incident, Gulf of Tonkin Incident)
    When there is no problem you
    - start a problem
    - propose solution
    - take actions to solve the problem (all planned in advance)
    That is what is happening with the PvP.
    PvP has been made a real mess for a long time and the situation is getting worse every day.
    The problem has been created.
    They have already announced a solution back in May during the live stream.
    So the next phase is "fixing the problem" (gearless stupid MOBA PvP).

    The golden enchantments, the gear and the crafting are not a problem.
    The real problem are:
    - game breaking item buffs
    - set bonuses
    - Base Stats
    There was a reason why in the past there were no base stats on items or at lest they were symbolic (excluding offensive items).
    They, the devs, are obsessed with the random factor. That is all wrong.
    Enchantments should be random but base stats should not.
    I have made evaluation. calculation and simulation on how to make the PvP balanced again ... i have shared it in this thread.


    I completely disagree ... and i will explain why.
    The arena is broken ... mainly because of the uber stupid buffs and bonuses.
    Therefore they should make new gear without those existing gamebreaking buffs.
    Gems and runes are complementing the gear ... they are not the issue whatsoever. Furthermore if the devs decide to remove them too ... they are going to make a big mistake because the game will collapse because of the dev's poor knowledge and skills.
    However ... the damage was done with the new system and the new base stats as well. It is not just the bonuses and buffs but the base stats are contributing to the game imbalance as well. The old base stats were almost perfect.
    The enchantments on items are OK they are only complementing the base stats.
    So ... in order to balance the arena they should remove those buffs and bonuses and lower the base stats on items.
    The new gear would not be having tiers ... all items would be T0.
    However ... even T0 items are gambreaking as they are now.
    Therefore the base stats should be lowered down. In example: if one T0 ring has max 600 crit ATM ... it should have base crit of 500 BUT only when glyphed up to level 60. So in reality the base crit would be lower than 500 when not upgraded.
    This should be done on all items and all base stats.
    When this done ... every single weapon and item and build is once again viable option in PvP.
    1H+shield, 1H+offensive offhand, 2H builds they will be all competitive in PvP.
    Because the players would not be able to reach max in all stats.
    If you play with shield you would have to take BR and BS from : Shield, rings, amulets ... in order to try to get the max possible BR and BS.
    However ... this will lead to lower HP and lower Armor.
    Because one would not be able to have max armor ( and beyond like ATM when having max armor while your armor is broken ) and high HP with max BR/BS.
    It will also lead to low crit and low crit damage. no more full crit and high crit damage with shield.
    One would have to chose between BR/BS and
    The same scenario will be applied to 1H + offensive offhand.
    The difference is this build will have no BS/BR but will have high crit and high crit damage.
    In fact the only build that would have chance to get max crit hit and crit damage would be 1H+ offensive offhand.
    2H builds would have higher base damage but would never reach beyond 50-55% crit or 200-250% crit damage.
    Now this is just example how it should be done ... the math behind it should be done by the devs. They are taking money for doing their job after all ... not me.

    And there you go all possible builds competitive again and no more 1 shot dead situations but rather longer and enjoyable combats ... and the arena at the old glorious level. And there will be happy and satisfied players who will only bring more new players in the game.
    One would have to balance things out ... but will never be able to get max of all stats.
    If you need more armor ... lower the damage/crit.
    If you need more BS/BR lower the HP and crit damage.
    If you need more HP/Armor you will have to sacrifice something else.
    And so on and so forth.
    The best balanced build would be the one with little bit of everything ... but not everything at max.
    The clueless devs are trying to take out the gems and runes ... which means all the hard work and investment gone to drain. That is not how you motivate people to play your game (your - highly questionable term. it is still unknown who and how many of them are in the dev team more than few months).

    As for the scaling low level players to cap level and putting them in fight with other cap level players ... it is just another bollocks.
    How can a player use a skill that one didn't even managed to unlock and use it in PvE.
    I have heard a lot of nonsense ... but this was the icing on the cake.

    I forgot to mention about DKs ...
    Dual wielding would be their 1H + offensive offhand item :)


    I can only add the following.
    There are two possible scenarios in order to balance the PvP.
    1. Gearless PvP
    2. New PvP-only equipment

    1. The gearless PvP is not an option because of several reasons.
    - this is ARPG it is not a MOBA. If players wanted to play a MOBA game they would play one at first place instead of this game. There are many MOBA games on the marked and they are all specialized in the segment ... players do not simply come to DSO and play hybrid MOBA PvP. They will play true MOBA game instead.
    - gearless PvP is killing the game. Players are farming because they want to get better not in PvE but in PvP ... with gearless PvP the reason to play the game will be taken out and the players would have no motivation to continue playing. (no new players will come if there are no old players left in the game)
    - this way the players can't make their builds ... they will have to use same gear as the other players. That is not working in RPG ... RPG lovers are adamant to any attempt of introducing a gear with no possibility of self made build.
    - as it can bee seen the servers ... even the well populated are almost empty. It was never like this before. I will explain the issue later below. This is due to imbalanced PvP at the moment ... but gearless PvP would make it even bigger.
    - pre-made builds and schemes are not working in this or any other RPG game

    2. New PvP gear for arena only
    - New gear must be introduced for PvP
    - These items would have no bonuses and buffs
    - The base stats must be lowered down significantly in order to achieve balance. (base damage could be completely removed from defensive items)
    - enchantments are not an issue ... therefore these items can be crafted with the current and the future enchantments from PvE farming.
    - GoPs, runes, tiers, gems, enchantments ... etc ... are not the issue. Since the Wisdom tree has been removed from PvP and it is not working in the arena ... they ^ will not be an issue and the players would still be able to build up their toons according to their preference instead of no possibility of any self made build.
    - this way the players would be always engaged and doing something to improve their toon/build (I will explain later on)
    - the base stats will be made according to the future dev's plans ... in case they want to make new Honor Tree (like the new wisdom tree) ... there will be no issue at all.

    So why the servers are empty and the game is currently in coma.
    The reason is PvP.
    As we know the devs are not releasing new events ... nothing is happening in the game for a long time. They are saying they are working on new contents, that is good but the players are leaving the game while they are working on new contents.
    This would not be an issue in the past because the arena was balanced and fun ... that is not the situation ATM. The arena is broken, full with bugs and exploits and everyone is avoiding it.
    The usefulness of the PvP is coming to light in times like these ... when the devs are busy with something else. That is why the balanced PvP is most important aspect of this game.
    There are players who don't play PvP but rather playing only PvE ... that is fine and we should accept that.
    But the vast majority of the players are playing the arena and the arena has always been the major driver for the game. That is a fact.
    The only ones who will try to oppose this are the new and weak players who have no gear at all or are playing the game from recently. All surveys and polls are showing up the fact that this game is PvP driven through PvE.
    The wast majority of the players are against the gearless PvP . I will mention only one poll out of many ... out of ~1300 players more than 70% said they are against the proposed changes.
    Players were spending real fortune on the game not because of Bosses and broken AI but because of the arena. Hardcore players are farming to improve their build so they can kick some butt in the arena.
    That been said ... we can come to the conclusion that gearless PvP CAN'T keep the players engaged but the new PvP gear can.
    That is the most important part ... because no player wants to get separated from their hard earned gear. That means they were wasting their time in the past 7 years with a game that will suddenly make their gear unusable.
    There is a difference between "New more powerful gear" and "taking away everything" that the players were farming for in the past. We, the veterans of this game, have been nerfed so many times, we have been changing gear so often throughout the years ... but that is OK ... what is not OK is taking away our gear just because the devs can't handle the game.

    The gearless PvP is not the way.
    There is another (new pvp gear) way and the devs know that ... but they have reasons (and I know the reasons) to promote only their gearless PvP. There have been so many stolen copy pasted features from other games in the past ... but changing the course of the game like this is simply unacceptable.
    Yogo, menestrelul, alchimista and 2 others like this.
  7. Purgerzg

    Purgerzg Active Author

    OK,for that t0 items,removing buffs.....but you forgot to add another thing;adding similar weapon like RA longbow to other classes
  8. rance_1983

    rance_1983 Someday Author

    I'll still play with whatever they put out but, I still want that challenge in all parts of the game because it's not fun if it's easy. I'm not replying anymore to this thread
  9. Yogo

    Yogo Forum Great Master

    It is scary to see that my silly joke could become a reality in near future; HERE is the moment I joked about PvP... that was a bit over a year ago...
  10. EmilyRose

    EmilyRose Forum Duke

    I don't understand the difference between Gearless PVP and New PvP- only equipmant, for me is ihe same kind.
    For a long time all players were putting in a position to do PvE to be better in PvP.
    But the game is changed: new items and new runes only for lucky players make a big distance in arena.
    I'm agree with you when you say "one will be never able to get max of all stats", in fact that is the reason of broken PvP today.
    In my opinion the way to balance the PvP, without to touch the new system of PvE is to separate PvP and PvE.
    That will bring to a new vision of the game, we need to leave the old use and look at the future of the game in positive.
  11. sargon234

    sargon234 Commander of the Forum

    with pvp only gear you can still benefit from gems and glyphs and runes, your time and your money invested in gems and glyphs and runes will be worth it
  12. Goodlloords

    Goodlloords Forum Apprentice

    Ok, what about when the tank class had to do solo ranking? He will change to 2h and will be a berserker... Or you want to do them use 1h+shield to do solo ranking and drecrease they dmg? I doubt they will want take 5 mins more than other classes to clear the same map, with the same stats. Or in PvP, make them have 6k dmg and way more HP to win at exaust?

    And what about a berserker? If he want do PvP, he will need to go with 2h? Or a new build with block on 2h? All classes will be able to use 1h + shield, and they dont? Basicaly, they will be a tank...

    (Sorry if your eyes bleed reading this, translator doenst help much lol)
  13. Akageshi

    Akageshi Forum Duke

    I don't think PvP matters to all or most players.
    Some servers are somewhat empty because there's not enough PvE content. Something presumably big is coming (hopefully) soon, though.

    OP does a good job by bringing up roles of different classes. It seems that currently each class can or even needs to be a brutal DPS in order to be successful, and to achieve that the player has to use one, maybe two optimal setups. OP mentioned Q7 set, and that is exactly the game breaking element at least for rangers.

    @trakilaki says that nobody cares about class imbalance in PvE. I do and many others too. The reason is that we want to have equal progression speed in PvE. However, if classes were to have very specific roles, which would be nice, the equal progression speed goal would be very hard to achieve because some classes would be good at dealing lots of damage to single targets, so they'd kill a boss more easily, while other classes might deal lots of damage that would spread between many small targets, which would make boss fights tedious.
  14. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    T0 is not enough ... it would probably need T-4 or complete removal of some base stats on some items.
    All classes already have it.
    Longbows has been recently changed and 20% concentration reduction has been added in order to make rangers more competitive with other classes. So that was a change to make the ranger competitive with the other classes.
    The other classes don't need resource reduction on weapon because:
    - DKs don't have problems with generating rage
    - SWs are having very high mana regeneration and replenishing skills
    - midgets are already having steam regeneration on offensive offhand

    The only class that is highly dependent on resources (concentration) and having issues with it is the ranger.
    Let me explain in short.
    If you pay close attention to what the lead designer Fidelis is explaining in the live stream:

    Gearless PvP:
    - gearless PvP means every single player would have same stats no matter the class (except HP and damage - those would be very close but different because of the classes' base HP and damage). There would be few patterns every class can select prior to the match (predetermined fixed values - more defense less damage - more damage lower defense - something in between - etc)
    - that means your equipment will not be working in PvP ... meaning years of hard work down the drain
    - players can't make their own builds - you would lose the ability to make your own build because your gear will not be working in the arena. That means a Role Playing Game without possibility one to customize its own character. That is not RPG at all.
    - level 55 players and level 1 players would play in the same battle. Level 1 players would get into fights with level 55 players without a need to farm anything or plan their gear. Low level players who are still not having unlocked their skills will be matched with cap level players. The low level player's stats would scale to highest level ... so like i said earlier ... all players will be having same stats.
    Why are they doing this? Because they can't think of any other possible change so they can make the matches available at fast rate at all levels. This stupidity would be their fix for long waiting matches.
    - Thousands of euros investments for P2P and P2W players ... as well as a decade long hard working and grinding for F2P old players would disappear in a thin air. This way they will thank all the players who were supporting the game in the past with the words "screw you very much we don't need you anymore".
    - That will cause the vast majority of the playing base leave the game.
    - There are not enough new players so they can contribute to these kind of change.
    - The new players would step into old player's shoes ... eventually (if not leaving the game earlier) ... and the game would have no players or would have so little players that there will be no economical reason to leave the servers still running.

    New PvP gear:
    - it is everything opposite to Gearless PvP
    - well balanced arena without punishing any of the players
    - players would still be able to make their own builds and use their hard earned equipment
    - the base stats would be made in such way (randomness removed because the enchantments are providing enough randomness) so the maximum possible enchantments/runes/gems/GoPs/Tiers applied on them would make them perfectly balanced ... but those maximum values would not be reachable by any player even in the best possible scenario.
    In other words ... your gear would still benefit from your farming. That will keep all the players still having a goal and continue farming PvE. That will keep all the players in the game ... and the new balance would attract more players.
    - There is even a possibility to scale the gear at higher level ... should they decide to make the matches playable for all players at all levels in a same basket. The stats would get to level 55 ... BUT ... enchantments and tiers would stay at same level because they are lower at lower level and lower level players can't craft all tiers (tiers are level dependent ... only cap level players can play Infernal).
    The low level players would still be able to play with the other players at all levels ... BUT they will have slightly lower stats ... but that is OK ... they would have to get to level 55 and farm like all the other players. Getting to level 55 nowadays is a peace of cake ... all you need is level 1 new character and bonus code 3 day premium and you would get to cap level in 2-3 days .. so no hard work at all.
    - all items for all classes would be competitive in the arena ... players would use every single item no matter if 2H or 1H+ offensive or defensive offhand and PvP will be balanced almost flawlessly.
    In example: Bouncing Blade bow would be exactly the same as any other longbow in the game because buffs and bonuses won't be working. Same goes for cube set, Q7 ... all items.
    These items would be compatible with any new Honor System if they decide to rework it as the new Wisdom system.

    So ... the first choice is the choice where the players would never be advancing no matter how much they are playing. This way there is no reason to play the game anymore. No PW is relevant, no events are relevant no nothing is relevant. why would someone play events and collect draken when they can't use the gear bought with draken anyway?

    The second one that i am proposing is the current balanced way with some modifications.
    Players would still be having incentive into playing PW, events, and everything else ... because they would still be determining their strength by their farming efforts.

    as i said in the previous posts only new players and noobs would prefer boost without playing.
    I don't need you and your "specific role" in order to play PvE or PvP.
    No one cares about broken AI but noobs. No boss is a quite a challenge compared to "showing off your build" in the arena. That is the main motivation that is driving the game. It has always been.
    Here is why you have such "opinion"
    - you are new player
    - you don't know what a decade long hard work means
    - you haven't paid real fortune in the game
    - you don't even know the game basics and mechanics
    - you have nothing to lose

    So ... of course you would't bother to get at same level with the other stronger players who were busting their butts off in order to get what they have now.
    It is like asking a new lowest level interim "would you like to have a salary as the senior hotshot who is working 30 years in this company?".
    No one would say "No".
    Yogo likes this.
  15. EmilyRose

    EmilyRose Forum Duke

    I understand your point of view because it is the consequence of more years of farming in pve to be strong in pvp and you ( me too) wouldn't like to lose this way to play.
    But the developers aren't players as us, they haven't spent time to be strong, they have a problem with pvp and they think to solve with gearless.
    When their ideas will come on test server, we can able to valute and we can give our opinions and they will have to listen us if we are important for them :)
  16. Yogo

    Yogo Forum Great Master

    They do not "have to listen us" and that is a very big "if" :) But I hope that you are right... for our sake:)
    EmilyRose likes this.
  17. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    I can predict their PvP in advance.
    Here is the thing ... it will be even more unbalanced than now. SWs and Rangers would be cannon fodder SWs would be slightly better though, DKs would do better but still unable to do anything about Midgets. Midgets would be the next ultimate immortals ... like they aren't already for a long time with those bugs and exploits intentionally left in the arena.
    Because RAs and SWs are highly reliable on their concentration/mana, DKs don't need attack speed and rage generation , Midgets have their turrets no one can challenge them.
    The attack speed for all will be ~1 ... 2H would have 0.83 which is exactly the same 1 AS.
    Under that speed you can't beat a midget with a same attack speed and 2x turrets at same time.
    And in same time you wouldn't be able to run without gear. :)
  18. sargon234

    sargon234 Commander of the Forum

    So in usual BP fashion they'll worsen the imbalance while trying to solve it

    They are special
  19. EmilyRose

    EmilyRose Forum Duke

    it seems an apocalypse scenery...the end of pvp, no balance only a grotesque fake...i hope you are wrong ;)
    Yogo and trakilaki like this.
  20. sargon234

    sargon234 Commander of the Forum

    it's moba done wrong
    Yogo and trakilaki like this.