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  1. fab

    fab Advanced


    Oh really, i didnt know sorry.
    Maybe frozen sphere got the longest range and move much much more faster than rangers EA and it's about 50% more:D
    Have you play a mage by the way, or you are just using a dk complaining and yet doesn't play other classes as well.
    I got 4 toons and dks invincible skill together with smash makes it almost immortal to any characters in dso.
    Take a tour in 5v5 with a dk carry a flag, and it takes almost the full team just to take a dk down and how hilarious it is.
    Pve is different from pvp as other class needs a dk to tank heavy damage, and mixing pve and pvp together is simply just funny.

    Ex : If all characters got 3k base damage and pvp against each other, which character will die first.
    Sw will die first coz of their lowest hp and blocks, connected lives is a waste of talent points if sw goes against a dk or sm.
    Sw stand almost zero chance with a dk using a shield, teleport cooldown takes way too long, elemental damage hardly deals good damage with a character with 3k resistance.
    2nd : rangers if they doesnt use a buckler as their blocks goes down almost zero ( almost the same like a sw using a book ), but dont forget rangers got high damage as well as buff skill ( marking for double damage ) and per EA hits a whopping 7-8K damage and even without the marking they still hit about 4-5k damage and dont you think its simply OP and not forgetting just a single wolf can stand a hit or 2 fireball.
    3rd : SM bcoz of their steam conductor allows them to replenish their steam as well as hp, iron drawf is unstoppable in 5v5.
    Their turrets auto aiming is too easy to use, place them and run around will their turrets will finish the job for them.
    4th : Dks, i agree that dks need to get close to their opponents in order to deal damage but lets not forget that they got tons of hp+blocks and not forgetting healing abilites
    That immunity skill is simply too OP, immune to anything and that includes singularity, frozen wind and frost nova too.
    I stopped playing 1v1 as due to the unbalancedness against any toon except a sw against a sw, a game should be at least some fairness in terms of skills and items, showing favourites is simply just a piss off to players as well as hatred against players too
     
    garonx, LordDefiant and Hyean like this.
  2. LordDefiant

    LordDefiant Forum Apprentice

    dear Haruki and Greg here is my question for you , when will you adress to game big issues such as pvp and unbalance between clasess? are you even aware that pvp is broken? or you simply dont care, essence togle and crafting 2,0 looks ok but now its time that you start fixing pvp
     
  3. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master

    About crafting 2.0...i have a bad feeling about that.Just wait for players to start building their items and the PvP will be even more messed up than it is right now.Find 12x green items all of them with 1 option on orange (same type of option; lets say move speed for instance), combine them, and you will end up with 1 exceptional item that will have around 30% move speed .Do the same for armor and u will end up with almost 30% dmg on armor...same for 2handers and u will get a 2hander with over 200% weapon dmg lol...And then the nerfings will start LOL

    Whats the point in farming bosses if exc items will be so OP lol?The legendaries that drop (which in 99.9% of the cases are bad) and the most uniques from bosses will become useless.

    We all saw trakilaki's weapon (btw awesome weapon you made bro)..imagine if he makes an armor with close to 40% dmg...he will 1hit pretty much everything if the hit is not blocked lol.Imagine a ranger or dwarf, or warrior getting items like these ...with dragon skin he will 1hit everything around it in pvp with a massacre lol (just used it as an example)..PvP will be so messed up that they will have to nerf or rethink the skills and/or gems values after a few months lol...

    At least there will be some good things about this...we will easily kill the lvl 3 bosses with greens ^_^
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
  4. MegaNuker

    MegaNuker Forum Ambassador

    Think of it like this. People can customize their gear. Maybe you will create a better setup than the others. I have faith in you.
     
  5. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    The weapons Trak and Baragain showed us were indeed incredible, but you ignored the amount of gold and legs it took to create those weapons.

    As far as I know, there aren't a ton of players that have 100K gold laying around in order to create these uber weapons, let alone the associated gear to really become god like.

    Now those that whip out the good old master card/visa could do it quicker, and as we all know, DSO supports and encourages that.

    I do agree that we will probably see another round of nerfing. Whether that has anything to do with crafting or simply all those complaining, sooner or later it will happen.

    Personally I learned my lesson the last time we got nerfed. No reason to pay money (premium or otherwise) if they are only going to take things away from me.

    There are a couple of options that would solve this.

    Option 1. They could eliminate pvp, then no one would have a reason to complain about anyone being op.

    Option 2. They could separate pvp from pve, then only the pvp players would suffer from nerfing.

    Option 3. They could put certain limits within pvp based on character level or pvp rank. Limit dmg, att speed, etc until certain levels are reached.

    Option 4. They could limit pvp to class type, DK to DK, SW to SW, etc. then no one would have a reason to complain about other classes.

    Option 5. Make pvp nude fighting, no gear, no weapons, nothing. Then no one could be OP.


    See the real problem is it is entirely too easy to complain, but very hard to build a strong character. So no matter what they do, some players will always complain that their class is the weakest or that whatever class they don't play is too OP.
     
    VMmage and Armando like this.
  6. LordDefiant

    LordDefiant Forum Apprentice

    yes i like the idea of limit pvp to class type as u said and that would make a pvp fair, second mages are now one of the weakest class, i play on sw have sacred and royal gems not so super strong but neither im weak and i still losing from dks and dwarfs 90% of time, and if u think that dks and sm arent op than u should try some pvp or something
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
  7. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Or option #0
    Shift the comma (,) one place in left for PVP
    i.e if the skill gives 10,00% damage per point make it 1,00%
    There won't be 5-6K damage hits but 500-600.
    There won't be 400-500 HP regeneration but 40-50 HP
    Everything like it used to be.

    Not exactly as the example above ... but you get what I am trying to say.

    Plus 4s immunity skill back = awesomeness
     
    mokranje and Rhysingstar like this.
  8. EhtovK

    EhtovK Old Hand

    Despite the fact I suggested I'd like to see the skills work like that (e.g. 100% damage for PvE ~50% damage for PvP), I think we might fall into another type of imbalance IF the HP regen/defensive stats are not tinkered with as well, I'd messed around with my couple's DK in the open arena in Kingshill, and, let's say our toons grew and developed together and are very similar power wise, and I have a bit of trouble shutting down the tank build even going glass cannon, another DK in my guild can survive 6-7 of my frozen spheres in the face, and I'd faced 2-3 SM that can heal just as fast as I shoot them in the face with chain frozen spheres/lightning strikes, and I'm not exactly weak, not uber powerful either, but I think you get my point, if they tinker with the damage while leaving everything else the same, don't count on any Ranger or SW to go to the arena to be frustrated for not being able to kill anything, even me, with my orb build, give a hard time to a lot of people trying to take me down, even 2H.

    So, although damage mitigation and 4 sec. immunity would be first good steps, they're not the entirety of the problem.
     
  9. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Of course ... it is the new skill system.
     
  10. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    Before they gave away the skills and rewards to everyone, I used to do a little pvp. I have a lvl 50 DK and a lvl 46 SM, yet I can lose to any class. The type of character I chose to play didn't make me stronger.

    I still have to farm my butt off and still have to rely on luck on gear drops and crafting. I still have lots of gear that weaker players would laugh at. I don't even have speed boots. I don't have some massive weapon.

    My gear and talent choices are 100% based on pve.

    I don't even have extra gear stored in my locker to change into even if I wanted to.

    So if you still need proof that all DK's are not OP, I see that you are also on Tegan, I'm more than happy to stand toe to toe with you and take the challenge.

    My feelings don't get hurt because someone has a stronger character than I do.


    Just the other day, a little lvl 48 SW said that all DK's were unstoppable, so we went to an open place and he beat me like a rented mule. I honestly thought that I heard the guy laughing all the way from Mexico.

    So if you are willing to take the challenge and fight my DK, here's the deal.

    *** If you win then you need admit publicly that not all DK's are OP and never again ask for DK's to be nerfed ***


    If I can beat you, I'll jump on your bandwagon.

    No whining about how bad my gear is, how bad my pvp skills are, how my choices of talents aren't right or whatever, no excuses. You give it your all and I'll do the same.

    How about it? I can 2h or 1h, your choice.

    Just so you know, here are my so called monster OP stats so you can't claim that you didn't know just how weak a DK can be.

    [​IMG]

    So you just let me know when you're ready to take the bet.
     
    Mljax and MikeyMetro like this.
  11. EhtovK

    EhtovK Old Hand

    To be honest, I was somewhat new to the game when this new skill system kicked in, so I can't really provide a 100% accurate insight on how good/bad things were in overall PvE/PvP before it was implemented, I can share what happened with my noobie wizard and DK back then, PvE wise, my wizard and DK improved a lot thanks to the chance of tinkering with the skills, perhaps I was just doing it wrong before that, but I, as a "newbie" ~lvl 40, saw my wizard grow PvE wise, PvP I stopped doing it daily and switched to my current once-a-month and out-of-extreme-boredom mode, because it lacked the esential motivation of getting the PvP earned skills which used to work in PvE as well, which is 95% of my interest in this game. So, I dunno what your opinion on the new skill system is when we speak about PvE, but from my POV it felt positive back then, and it feels positive, even despite of the loss of the PvP skills which I was willing to earn through effort. PvP wise, I don't have solid evidence about it.

    I highly doubt the old skill system is coming back, but we as players and testers, need to provide non-biased feedback on how to improve the current system, I remember you posting a complain about DK's shoving their power in everyone's faces killing Mortis solo with just polished gems and 2H weapons with the old system, because, as you stated, this might have been one of the reasons they brought a nerf upon them, thus, leading the developers to create a "similar" (and thus, flawed) system for all 4 classes despite the fact we all are, essentially different, and crushed several parts of the gameplay in the process, PvP being one of them, the "final" skills (novas, cyanite shield, etc...), taken away from PvE despite the fact they were and can be very useful in a lot of situations inside of PvE, they took away the 4 sec immunity skill albeit we have enemies like the miller and his archers that can chain-freeze us until death, the gorgons inside Skyfall arena, etc.

    Problem is, the community is mostly partial about the class or two classes they play, they mostly fail to see the bigger picture, which I think you're indeed able to see, so a lot of them jump into the ask-for-nerfs train out of pure ego, without providing solid proof of what's actually wrong and what's actually needed. One example could be the essence consumption I tackled in another post, instead of asking to increase the essence usage of the SM, I'd rather ask the RA and SW essence consumption to be checked and, perhaps, mitigated.

    Yes, you might be right about the new skill system wrecking a lot of stuff, but we gotta face the fact it's not going to be rolled back, but we could still provide, as I said before, useful insight just as you do, to try and get the devs into the right direction, the nerf train only pleases fatal mobs and bosses, so, we're counting on people like you, Baragain, Rhysingstar, etc., to help the team sort out what's the reality of the game needs regarding balancing across PvE and PvP wise.

    But, considering the roadmap so far, the developing speed showed lately and their priorities, I think we're far from seeing a sustantial change regarding actual balancing, be it PvE or PvP oriented, and I'm honestly scared of what they might do to PvE in an effort to fix PvP, I hope I'm proven wrong when the time comes. :confused:

    You're not alone. :p
     
  12. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Damage mitigation... that rings a bell... OH YEA!
    I wrote that back in October when people first started pointing out how bad the damage issue was in PvP. Now, with crafting 2.0 coming and promising the potential of some truly terrifying weapons/builds, maybe this needs to be revisited. Furthermore, as many of the people above yelling for a DK nerf, maybe something similar needs to be applied to HP. The more HP you have, the more it is mitigated.

    Using this, SWs or SMs with 8k-10k damage would be reduced down to a much more manageable 4k-4.5k and DKs with 25k HP would be down to around 12.5. Meanwhile, because this is a logistic type curve, people with low damage/hp are not as heavily impacted. This means that newer players who are still working on improving their builds would be able to play PvP without being wiped out.

    Wait a moment... Am I describing a way to balance PvP for all players without nerfing one class which would also destroy their usefulness in PvP? Well, how about that. Lets see if the CMs notice and actually pass this on to the developers and tell them that one of their players did a lot of the leg work for them on how to significantly improve PvP balance.
     
    VMmage, BigPapa, Troneck86 and 2 others like this.
  13. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    You have 2 different types of games competing for the same space.

    Look at the basic systems independently.

    In pve, you have the warrior, which is supposed to be able to hold aggro and take a serious beating. Then you have the mid level Ranger and SM designed to provide back up. Then the SW designed to stand back and throw massive amounts of dmg.

    In a group setting, if each of the characters were strong and working together, everything works according to plan.

    You have the DK attracting attention, the sw throwing in armor breaks, the various pets, the stuns, it all looks right.

    Then you have pvp.

    You take a glass cannon and put them up against a dk that is supposed to be able to take a major licking from the strongest bosses in the game. They aren't supposed to die easily, that's the point of a tank.

    On the other side of that, a spell weaver is supposed to be fast and never get hit.

    The Ranger and SM are supposed to be halfway between the two extremes. They should be able to take some hits, deal some damage and handle some crowd control.

    The basic idea of these types of characters are meant to compliment, not compete.


    Now because DSO didn't do things 100% correctly when creating the classes, it became possible for a DK to go 2h and not need a support group. We all saw them running solo on the big bosses. Then they could take this same set up and dominate pvp.

    So the great nerfing came.

    They jacked up the dmg outputs which is great for pve, and added even more strength to Dk's, which is also great for pve.

    Look at the skills offered. When grouping for the bosses, everyone wants a 1h Dk that can pull aggro and survive. They couldn't kill the boss in a year, but they can absolutely (with the right gear) stand there and take damage all day long.

    So we have the problem all over again. In pve, everyone demands that the Dk survive and the other classes to be able to throw dmg, but in pvp, everyone wants the Dk to die easily and some of the other classes to lose some dmg.

    With 2 different games within the game, they are linked and whatever you add to one adds to the other. The reverse is also true, you nerf one aspect, you nerf the other.

    While it is easy to want to cry nerf this or nerf that, you also have to figure in the luck factor and the money factor.

    People who are incredibly lucky and get those massive gear items are always going to beat those who don't.
    People who farm more and think about how to build are always going to beat those who don't.
    People who are spending vast sums of money are always going to beat those who don't.
    People who are lucky and spend vast sums of money are going to beat everyone.

    There is no way to balance luck, time or money within the current system.

    Now Trak's idea of shifting the comma (,) in pvp is interesting and would go a long ways to settling at least some of the issue.

    The best way would be to separate out the 2 types of games and create a balanced system for pvp that is independent of pve. All classes have the same parameters, but of course this would upset players even more. They wouldn't have anything to complain about.

    The sad part is, more than likely this is going to continue to get worse before it gets better. The loudest cries for nerfing will win out and everyone will suffer.

    Think about that when you're putting in countless hours building your character. Think about that when your whipping out your credit card to buy premium and gems.

    You bust your butt to build a nice character just the way you want, then bang, it's all gone because someone got their feelings hurt losing in pvp.
     
  14. LordDefiant

    LordDefiant Forum Apprentice

    first of all i dont play on tegan i used to but now for a past year i play on heredur, k you said sw have the highest dmg? thats not true sm can deal way more dmg and dks can match same if not better dmg than sw and what does sw have? lowest hp, armor dmg same as the rest(except for rangers) no healling skill only if u kill something u get 5% back, and this is fair how?
     
    fab likes this.
  15. fab

    fab Advanced


    Balanced out means = the old fashion arcade game ( street fighter or king of fighters ) where every character got their own specialized set of skills and equal amount of hp.
    For dso it will be
    Dk , no immunity , healing and no buff skills
    Sm, no healing as well as steam recover
    Rangers, no wolves, no eagles and no marking for double damage
    Sw, no watchman and no singualrity
    The big question now is will players able to accept this requesto_O
    And that will eventually solve all complains and issues, and a BIG LOAD of complains off dso shelves and emails !
     
  16. EhtovK

    EhtovK Old Hand

    Rhysingstar gave you some reasons a few posts ago:

    If you still fail to understand why those differences exist and are needed inside a game like DSO, a.k.a., the basics, do us all a favour, save your rants and go play Street Fighter
     
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  17. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Hi Haruki.
    I have one very important question for you.

    Do you know what this is: ... ,,, ... ,,, ... ?
    No?
    Neither do I ... but there it goes again ... ,,, ... ,,, ...
     
  18. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    Hi Haruki,

    I hope your time off is being good to you, because the changes happening while you are gone isn't going over particularly well.

    So let me be the first to ask about crafting 2.0 reboot.

    Way back when the cots were removed, we started getting charged gold/ander for crafting. Of course many players did not like this, so after quite some time of deep reflection, DSO finally decided to do something about it.

    After all, the claim was players were not using the craft and when doing so, they put in random crappy gear.

    Months later, we were told that an update would occur.

    The original plan was to remove a little bit of the random and then punish anyone by taking away a couple of the items should they not get lucky and receive what they were hoping for on the first roll of the dice.

    I questioned this punishment, and you came on here to tell us that the decision was changed and if we put in four like items, we would not lose any.

    This sounded great.

    Some of our math whizzes even began the task of developing guides on what to farm for and how to better our chances within the realms of random generated luck.

    Most of the feedback was incredibly positive and for the first time in a long time, some of us thought that indeed DSO was listening.

    Then after a delay or two or three, the new crafting 2.0 hit the test server.

    Since feedback was needed, many players received 50K ander, 30K gold, 150 legendary items and Winter solstice presents.

    So obviously they did what comes naturally when awarded with so many resources. They crafted, reverted, crafted, reverted and finally a few got some killer gear.

    Those items were reported here on the forum for all to see. They even mentioned the fact that it had cost them upwards of 100K to get those items, but that fact was ignored when the claims of OPness started making the rounds.

    All of the sudden some people were claiming that the sky was going to fall and everyone in the game was going to become OP day 1.

    These players did not consider the amount of luck required, the amount of gold required, the amount of farming needed, just that it had become possible for anyone (even the casual free player) to finally be able to craft a useful item.

    Given the math provided by our forum whizzes, it was indeed possible for someone with a plan to farm smartly and then craft smartly to improve their character.

    The odds of creating a god like weapon were still small, but possible.

    Once this revelation hit the forums and social media, the cries reigned down.

    Since DSO does actually listen to a select small group of players, the decision on a player friendly crafting process was rethought.

    It was reverted back to the original plan that punishes any player who is foolish enough to believe that luck is on their side and dares to craft. Yet they added a twist.

    Not only do we need to put in 4 like items and roll the dice, if we are unlucky on that very first attempt, we lose two. If that wasn't fun enough, we get the added pleasure of paying extra for it.

    So the result of this new crappy 2.0 dictates that we put 2 good items in and 2 crappy items in and hope for the best.

    This is a direct contradiction to the original discussion of 2.0 in that DSO wanted us to stop putting in crappy items and hoping for the best.

    Now it is not a secret that the heaviest of paying players were the ones who didn't like the player friendly version.

    The player friendly version would have significantly closed the gap between free players who farm and craft wisely and those who simply throw money into the game.

    Before you or anyone thinks that this about free versus paid, it is not.

    This is about listening to the players, all the players.

    For those of us with lower and middle of the road characters, this could have been a great improvement.

    This would have encouraged all of those players to play more.

    Yes, there could have been some payers that enlarged their OPness, but since they would have needed even greater enchantments to improve than those of us who not uber strong, the odds were against it.

    It is one thing to get a nice legendary item, it is a whole different thing getting a god like item.

    So I and I'm sure many others would love to hear some form of explanation on why a very small select group of players got their way in this decision.

    If and that is a big if, DSO put some real effort into balancing pvp every player in the game would not have to be constantly punished because of a few OP players.

    Of course balancing pvp is sort of like a friendly player crafting system, it doesn't completely reward the heaviest payers, so maybe that is why it doesn't happen.


    Edit to add:

    As an extra bit of fun for you, one of our resident math whizzes (Baragain) just published his new stats for crappy 2.0

    It would be nice if everyone at DSO was made to read it, but I have my doubts that they would care enough. After all, got to keep the heavy payers happy right?
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2016
  19. fab

    fab Advanced

    Mages should be able to do more damage than any other classes in the coz of their low hp and armour instead rangers is more capable of doing that task.
    You should be the one going back to the basics, its just sad to say you are simply doesnt know playing a sw is a struggle in pvp against a dk with immunity and rangers using an super OP explosive shot.
    Differences should be amended in order to be a more balanced and fair, its not you're good its just bcoz dso is haywire in terms of skills.
    Waste of time replying !
     
  20. EhtovK

    EhtovK Old Hand

    FYI, I play a Spellweaver, and even I think contrary of you, you sound like a broken record since long ago, this is the only topic you're capable of posting about and even that, you do it wrong, I might be misleaded thinking your SW is actually stronger than mine, which was my perception, is your in-game PvP rank a mere decoration?

    You just rant pointlessly giving no useful insight, no useful feedback for Haruki to read, no proposals, no solid proof of what you're saying, and I'd normally ignore you since it is, as you said, a waste of time reading, and reasoning with you is as easy as reasoning with a wall, but, if you think that you'll be able to talk gibberish and rant based on your biased and short opinions and speak on behalf of all Spellweavers and the rest of the classes without oposition just because BigPapa isn't around, you're awfully wrong.

    When you have numbers to back you up, video/picture proof or a decent analysis of what you're saying, come, and let's sit and have a civil conversation that might even catch the interest of our CM Haruki.

    Cheers! :D
     
    -Skygazer- and Mal3ficent like this.
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