Crafting 2.0.3 :-[

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by _Baragain_, May 21, 2016.

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  1. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    No blame towards Baragain at all. He has certainly played more and smarter than most. I was simply using him as an example as to why stronger players are getting further ahead than everyone else.

    He is not the only one. All the super strong characters across servers are widening the gap fast.

    DSO is the one that designed it this way, so I am not blaming any player.

    The fatal maps provide much better gear and those who can farm it fast get better. Simple math.

    Everyone stuck on painful or worse yet regular maps will progress at a much smaller rate. They do not have the ability to farm lots of gear fast and as a result they can't craft as many items, can't sell as many items and cannot get as many gops.

    Once you factor in the random "luck" generator this is why so many average players get so frustrated. It takes time to get 2 good items, let alone 4 good items when you are stuck farming lesser maps. So when the "luck" is against you for a try or two, it hurts a lot more and that is when the "feelings" begin that they will never improve.

    The super strong characters also have this bad luck, but because they have more ingredients and more gold at their disposal, they don't notice the failures as much.

    On top of that, when they do get "lucky" the gains are far more significant.

    I'm not saying that stronger players should be held back in any way, I'm simply suggesting that a better crafting system would allow the average and weaker players to improve faster and close the gap at least a little bit.
    Dragenstein and dkarl like this.
  2. thebearreturns

    thebearreturns Exceptional Talent

    So... do you mean you want devs make game easier so people doesn't have to make the effort final players did sometime to get this advance?
  3. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador


    I am not now, nor have I ever suggested that the game become easier for anyone. I have in fact argued for more balance so that weaker and average players could grow their characters so that they would not just get frustrated and quit playing.

    Despite what some players choose to believe, having tons of frustrated weaker players does not help the game.

    On the other hand, having more strong characters would help with grouping and pvp.

    There is already a limit to how god like a character can get. (Baragain has proven that math with his ultimate build thread).

    Providing the easier path for those who are already strong to become god like while making it very difficult to the weaker players to improve benefits no one in the long run. A balanced approach would have frustrated considerably less people.

    Now it is easy to sit back and think that my characters were weak and therefor I just wanted to become op with no work or effort, but that is not the case. When I was actively playing, I had no issue running fatal maps solo or killing fatal bosses (except Kahlys and Balor of course).

    Unlike some other players, I tend to think about more than just myself.

    More active players = more fun for everyone in my humble opinion. I would have loved to have seen more strong players, but alas, DSO and some players do/did not feel the same way.

    I could go back and regurgitate what I said over and over again in all of the initial crafting threads but there is zero point to that.

    DSO made their decision and players either accept it or move onto other games.

    For my part I am sorry that I got back into an old argument and stirred the pot over something that isn't going to change.

    Quite honestly when I looked into the forum I was hoping to see something truly positive about the direction of the game, even though deep down I knew better. I should have just lurked and moved on.
  4. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    I completely disagree with the above statement. Its true, that the more good players - better the game is, but those good players didnt get good in one day. Nor they have had crafting 2.0 available.

    Those good players did 5000 m2-5k runs, or 10000, or more. Those good players worked hard. And even before fatal was introduced. Those good players farmed junk to find 1 good leg out of 500.

    And they didnt start m2-5kn right away, they spent months teaming with the noob team to do the full map, and they were growing slowly, step by step. Until they reached a moment, they could run through. Etc.

    Then they kept running, months, to get were they are at Aug 2015. Then they took the next step with fatal. And finally with crafting 2.0.

    What you are saying there should be a system designed to make noobs god-like overnight. Thats just impossible, and also not fair.

    Why should those who cant run painful dream of 4x gold items? They are 5 steps away from that. Let them work their way through painful mode. Work on glyphs, find some okay items, eventually with 1-2 gold lines etc.

    Im not even saying the fatal has no benefit in terms of quality for the %based atts. Sure there more items, but still.

    Also, 130dmg ring over 120 isnt a huge improvement. 120 over 60 is, however.

    Im able to farm 1M glyphs in painful a day with my noob DK, without good gems - mostly polished and 1 tier above. Sure I can do 2M a day with my mage, but those glyphs worth less and less as you improve.

    So baby steps, baby. One step at a time. And set normal targets, reach them, and reset.
    LooneyTed and thebearreturns like this.
  5. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I was wondering the same thing, because anything that makes it easier for the "normal" people will make it inconsequentially easy for the "elite" players. Unless the Devs were significantly more talented than I think they are, I don't see them devising a mechanism for measuring strength (think about that worthless CV system) and then altering the odds based on that. And if they did, their top payers and top grinders would riot. In my opinion, the best way for the "normal" players to use the new system is to have more relaxed standards than the "elites." I would not even consider a line that wasn't gold in crafting, but a normal player could have significant gains from even high non gold lines. If I was a brand new LVL 50 with my math background, I would be looking for 2H weapons with 60%-80% weapon damage instead of 75%-80%. I'd be looking for crit lines over 200 as opposed to crit lines over 235. I'd be looking for % crit damage of 14%+ as opposed to 16%+. Then, I'd use that as a springboard for making the really insane items.

    Like it was pointed out, I've been playing for a long time and I'm playing smart. Could you imagine how ticked off I would be (and rightly so) if a player who has been playing 4 months and just reached LVL 50 last week was able to reach my level of strength with just another month of playing? It was also pointed out that I was able to solo the hard stuff before and it has just gotten easier. In my opinion the "OP gap" isn't getting worse, it is just shifting. In the past, the best that even a top player could hope for was 15k-19k DPS, but now that items can be tuned to a build, and much higher values can be reached, people who reach LVL 50 tomorrow will be stronger in their next three months of grinding than I could have reached in 6 month after I reached 50.

    The wonderful thing about the "Show what you have" thread is that it is a historical record for me of my character building. Here is what I looked like when I reached 50 and when I crafted what was likely the one of the first LVL 50 Black Warlord sets (I had wasted 12 inventory spaces for months to do it). Those stats were good, but not impressive by today's standards in the slightest. That was on the 7th of September last year. Three months later I made an update post and in that time, I had managed to only gain 300 damage, 500 crit, 3.9k HP (from finishing my knowledge). Some of that was also due to the changed to the gems in R158, so some of that wasn't even from getting better gear. Christmas came along with a gem sale, and I got some nice luck. It got me another ~150 damage. It wasn't until Feb 14 that I got a really lucky break. I found a 2H sword that improved my damage by 600-900, and my crit by 12%, at a speed loss of 0.15, but it was nothing special by today's standards (112% weapon damage, +86 damage, and 1459 crit). Today, a new LVL 50 could craft something better than that in much less than five an a quarter months. Then May 7th, 8 months after I reached LVL 50, this was my final stat show off before Crafting 2.0. It is good, no doubt (I only gained about 140 damage, 0.75% crit) and ... 8500 DPS is nothing to sneeze at, but that took 8 months of farming and a really lucky break from that sword drop.

    If it takes a DK 8 months to reach 8500 DPS after they reach LVL 50 in this era of Crafting 2.0, then they are doing something wrong. Sure, as said, they aren't going to close the gap and be as strong as me in 3 months, but if they could, that would tell me that the system was broken in the other direction. I have a DK buddy who just got to LVL 50 about a month ago. He doesn't have any DPS sets (Bellicose, Black Warlord, Witch Chaser, Darkness, etc), but he is already able to solo Painful PWs with greens and he hasn't even reached LVL cap on his knowledge, nor does he have the gems that I had from years of farming before LVL 50 came out. In my humble opinion, that tells me that the new crafting system is working. He may not be crafting the ultra items that are worth showing off in the Crafting Results thread, but crafting has made him way more powerful than I could have ever hoped to be after I reached LVL 50. Weaker players are benefiting, they just aren't showing off or becoming as strong as the ones who have been playing 4.5 years, and that is the way it should be. In fact, given another year, a player like the friend I mentioned will be quite strong and while I may still have an edge because of gems and glyphs, the gap between him, a one and a quarter year old toon, and me, a 5.5 year old toon (remember, this is a year from now) will be much smaller than the difference between a 2.5 and 3.5 year old toon would have been a year ago.
    Armando, Reinier and sebastian_fl like this.
  6. Reinier

    Reinier Someday Author

    Just my 2 cent on this. My main toon is a level 44 SW and leveling slowly. I mostly solo since I play no more than 4-5 hours a week :eek::rolleyes: and it is difficult to make friend like this.
    For all the reason above my gear is very bad; however I did use crafting to improve my stat. I now have an exo weapon with two %dmg lines and 1 +crit rate (random one).
    The value are rather small (+30%) , but I have got it after less than 5 tries and it improved my DPS quite a lot. You know it is easier to accept the outcome when your standard are very low. My previous exo one had +23% iwd, +15 dmg, + 8% speed :eek::eek::eek: (this was the best drop I had from regular mob :().
    In my opinion crafting is good because it give you the ability to search for some stat fitted to your build and try to get them together in a single item.
    I agree that " low level", not twink :D, char like me should not be obsessed with it, otherwise they will lose too much resources. But the system may still be used to improve when luck does not help you.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2016
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  7. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    That is exactly what I meant. Just imagine when you reach LVL 50. In the old system, you'd be waiting forever for another decent/good drop, but now, you could actively pursue making a better one. And like you said, if you standards are not perfection, you can still make significant gains.
  8. Wyvern25

    Wyvern25 Forum Greenhorn

    New here, feel free to correct me if you think something is off. Active players (tegan) seem to be the biggest issue and I think specifically the issue is not so much gear as it is quests/leveling. The game was quite enjoyable (sm) till about 40 and then quests dried up and grinding xp was horrible until 45. I understand this had some tie-in to an old level cap and xp pots which were removed at some point; the amount of grinding was exponentially higher and I almost quit, I'm sure many do. I'm fine with the grind reqd for lvl 50 gear but the grind to even reach 50 all the while being locked out of pws just seems like an incredibly poor decision regarding new players. 45 was wonderful in that it unlocked quests all the way to the dragon which has gotten me almost to 48; the dragon was brutal, I had a good laugh with the damned thing chasing me and being 2 shotted all the while his health essentially not moving. Again, personal opinion, but the ramp up was completely unexpected and seems a poor decision regarding player retention.
  9. steelfox1973

    steelfox1973 Someday Author

    So Dr Horrible you as me believe in math,but I dont believe on BP.
    I play this almost 5 years and BP always use same methods ,when craft 2.0 was launched its perfect fine, now its getting worse and worse.... more 20 crafts , extras, most of then 9 goods adds of 12

    final craft: 16 items all 3 bad adds 4 items whit 1 good add and 2 bad adds. using most of my gold on jesters now. Money spent whit deluxe premium was wasted at craft point of view.
  10. thebearreturns

    thebearreturns Exceptional Talent

    Let's compare to a bachelor degree.... do you think should be fair medicine (6 years of bachelor) to reduce now to a 3 years bachelor? and both new and old students had same capabilities?... i don't find this FAIR... why we want essentialy last bugusers get banned??? ... cause they took advantage with NO EFFORT (also cause they abused from the bug, and it's not respecting legal players behaviour)... what some of you think is a balance i think is same as those bugusers but trying to do like a legal mode
    Dragonnns, LooneyTed and _Baragain_ like this.
  11. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    I'll just add that if you're just getting started, you can lower your sights more for 2H weapons. I mentioned this earlier, but for my alt dwarf, I used high 40s as my cutoff and was able to craft a 3-1 2H gun with about 140% increased damage and +100 damage as my numbers. Now I can easily solo q3 lvl 1, and solo some lvl3 bosses as well as run in a group at lvl3 for any map. Alternatively, you could aim for a 2-golden line extraordinary 2H rather than a mediocre line legendary.

    I was also able to craft a 2x increased damage% - 2× hp torso - 3 slot from 2 extraordinary torsos each with a golden damage% line, and 2 junk 4 slot extrardinary torsos in the 3 and 4 holes. Settling for a 2 golden legendary can still be helpful boost to your character, especially now that the dqs offer more coin and honor points that can be funneled into crafting resources.

    Another strategy is running destructor - the level 44-46 mechanical/automated set should have some value for non dwarf characters at level 50.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2016
    Reinier likes this.
  12. LooneyTed

    LooneyTed Someday Author

    If you want to start as an end-game character that snow storm company has just the thing for you. A friend told me a new player may now start at level 100 (with a level 110 cap). Perhaps you're in the wrong place.

    I worked for my level 50. To me, making new players so strong is just like the last event bug. It won't be earned. Besides, how much fun can that be?



    Be Kind.
  13. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Isnt that exactly what I said? Whats your point?

    Or, was it an agreeing comment?)
  14. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    How soon we forget.
  15. LooneyTed

    LooneyTed Someday Author

    I beg pardon. I was supporting what you had posted. I see I should not have used the generic "you". I didn't mean you, yourself.

    Mea culpa.



    Be kind.
  16. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I still wish that we got all 4 back. If it were still that way, I'd have all 4/4 legendaries I've the places I want then. I've simply passed to acceptance.
    Looks like I did.
    Armando likes this.
  17. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    I have a ton of respect for you. You are one of the few people that has given advice and help to all levels of players.

    You also realize that most players go by what feels right to them. The current system may be fine in the long run, but when the perception is that it doesn't feel right, people believe that perception.

    Now this highlight in that older post by you points out an exact way to help weaker/average players.

    All I was suggesting was that maybe there is some way to help weaker/average players and then everyone had to jump on the "I want to punish the older player" thing which I have never, ever suggested. I also never suggested making anyone OP day 1 or without earning it.

    Your older suggestion perfectly demonstrates that it is possible to help newer players and not hurt older ones at the same time.

    Hopefully everyone now has a better understanding of what I meant.

    With that said, I'm out. Good luck everyone, happy killing!
  18. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    It is a hanged if you do, hanged if you don't sort of thing. The more I think about it, the more I realize that the current solution is likely for the best, but I simply hoped for more and dream of more now.
    Armando likes this.
  19. thebearreturns

    thebearreturns Exceptional Talent

    Well then i'm gona put my opinion about: new players lvl up MUCH faster than i did in the past ... what i dedicated 3 years to get in the past, now ALL players get in a month.... so basically if someone cannot support to play for a less than a month to be an end of game player... he/she should quit, and i'm not walking about feelings... i have seen that... some friends get bored about their char, started new one, and in a SINGLE week being stronger than i was after playing here 3-4 years.... WHAT the heck is people claiming for??? come on man.... come on...
  20. bennfros

    bennfros Someday Author

    I don't know about old crafting system but this one is not bad at all
    It is the same like drop, you can be surprised or not :)

    Probably I will be happy with neck till I find something better, got it just in few tries :)

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