Development Team Letter - CLASS BALANCING

Neither of them is a top character.
The ranger is clearly not adopted to longbow play ... also he could have avoided the fight until the exhaustion ... that tank has no big damage he would be an easy kill in exhaustion time. But that does not apply to strong tank who has insane survivability and insane damage. And that goes not only for top tanks but all of them who have high damage and HP.
Waiting for exhaustion time is killing the purpose of PvP and the game play ... and not all the arenas have exhaustion period.
When you see two equally strong players (ranged vs tank) and the ranged one standing inside his own base (6v6) and can't take the tank down even with the buff from the base ... then you know something is wrong there.

 

Actually you really don't know. I don't even like pvp, I mostly play it when I have a clover in the daily quests, or when i start going crazy from farming pve content, and I really wouldn't mind if I was a bit weaker in an arena... What bothers me about these suggestions is that I've played this game since the start of Beta, and I've played every class excessively at different times, and I know BP doesn't do stuff like separating pvp from pve for the sake of balance... if they nerf DK in pvp, that will mean DK is dead for about the next 2-3 years both in pvp and pve..


Anyway as the other dude pointed out as well, that video is not just the proof of regeneration being strong, but it shows how strong ranger is as well, because that RA came close to killing that tank multiple times even though he did not play very well. And no we are not immortal.. sure I'm not there yet, because in my 1h setup I can still improve, as I only have 160k life with capped blocks and capped armor after armor break, yet there are rangers who can kill me in ~4 EAs if I'm not careful and if they can aim, which is cazy if you think about it, because I have to give up quite a bit of offensive stats to accumulate enough defenses to not get killed in 1 hit as a Tank.

 

True..or less..at least reduce it for a week or two and see how it goes.They can decide if it was 2 much or 2 less based on feedback and seeing how it goes.But at least do something already...

The SWs are nerfed since lvl 55 came..You dont see this as being a big problem so why if DKs are nerfed feels like the end of the world? If they nerf DK in PvP, DK wont be dead but will be balanced to a point where every other class will have a chance in winning when they fight vs a DK.

You are a DK, you are living the dream right now...god status, no one can kill u...what about the rest? Did we get our gems, runes, premium, uniques for free or we payed for them and deserve a fair chance when playing 1 vs another? I did not know that if u start playing a mage you receive unlimited amount of glyphs, ander and clovers.If we were talking about gems that cost 1$ a piece id be ok but royal gems are like 500$ a pop.I dont expect to be crap after being asked to pay 5k $ just to get the offensive gems at max, 5 onyx and 5 rubies without adding the ander that has to be spent for runes and other things.

When u ask so much for a gem i expect the balance to be flawless.Otherwise allow me to swap my gems /runes/ glyphs from a char to another and ill play the class that is being the most favorised at the time being.As it is right now, those who invested in SWs ended up with a big pile of SHIT....its the truth..we can sugar coat it as much as some of you need it...but at the end of the day the SW is SHIT and its like this for the past 2 years ...0 changes to fix this...exactly 0...The SWs who still support this game by buying premium or ander are really naive to be honest...obviously DSO doesnt care about this class otherwise we wouldve seen some changes already.

Like FC Spellweaver or FC Ranger and FC Steam mechanicus vs FC Dragonknight...the FC Dragonknights are the best nowadays...they win them all with ease...always with 2-0 or 2-1 lol..they have the best team..best attack and defense xD

 

I guess that is supposed to be a joke so i won't say anything except we are not all Americans and we don't understand "American jokes" ... and we don't care about politics here.

I see no language barrier ... at least not from my side. I have already explained and gave you the answer to your question. But it seems you don't understand again. OK, i will make it more simplified.

Wrong. Ranking is not based on "games played" it is based on total Honor Points accumulation.

True ...
And here comes the "language barrier" ... I mean the part you don't fully understand:

"slightly-favored", "favored" and "empty space - no one being favored" is not based on:
- CV number
- player's rank
- player's skills
It is based on win-loss ratio ... average of your lost and won matches. Match-making is rather based on more complicated calculation and algorithm but who is favored and who is not is a simple ratio comparison.
If both players have equal or close to equal ratio no one is favored.
If one player has higher ratio than the other one they are being labeled as "slightly favored"
If one player has much higher ratio than the other one they are being labeled as "favored"
What are the brackets and the numbers for all ^ those ... I don't know.
If you have won 500 and lost 100 matches and i have won 300 and lost 800 matches you will always be favored against me ... until i improve my ratio or you worsen yours. And now we get to your next statement

Titles and ranks are based on honor points BUT matchmaking is not. You are mixing up two different things.
Titles are irreversible --- no one can get your total honor points and your title away from you
Matchmaking/ratios are variable --- you can improve them or you can worsen them
I don't know what teams those Washington and Philadelphia Eagles are (never heard of them) but I will make a comparison with real teams/clubs.
Arsenal F.C. vs Manchester City F.C.
Arsenal - won the Premier League 13 times - last time 2003-4. Currently holding the 6th place in EPL. Won-15 ; Draw-6 ; Lost-10.
Manchester City - won EPL 4 times -last time 2013-14. Currently holding the 1st place. Won-27 ; Draw-3 ; Lost-1.
Now ... Arsenal has a Grand Marshal title because of the titles won and all the accumulated points from the past. Their title is irreversible no one can take it from them. Manchester City has Ardent Centurion title.
The current season shows that the ratio is on Manchester City's side. the ratio and the current form are variable.
If they play against each other today the Ardent Centurion will be clear favorite against the Grand Marshal ... simply because Arsenal suck balls today and their current ratio is clearly showing that. The odds in all betting-shops will be against the Grand Marshal.
But wait until they play against real teams ... like Real, Barca and Bayern .. they both stand no chance XD
I hope you now understand what was i talking about

Player's are favored or not based on current form/ratio ... which is changing and can go up or down all the time.

 

First of all, nothing against you, I just quoted that post to make some of my points clear

I can see from the dk's cv that he's far away from being top statswise, at least for heredur standards, and im pretty sure also for grimmag standards. His setup is built around having much life, nothing else. His armor is way too low (you can see how drastically his cv drops when he gets an armorbreak), his dmg is pretty low too. This build would be so much stronger with a little bit less life, more armor and more dmg. And believe me, as soon as he hits the 70-75%armor after break mark, there won't be any chances of "2shotting" anymore, not even with several consecutive lucky non-blocked crits.

The ranger however is statswise one of the best 1h rangers I've seen so far, I've seen his build and stats in the fb-group dso-world. And yet he obviously has no chance to win this match.

I liked the wording "if the DK made a single mistake he would have been dead".
The DK made many mistakes and yet he never died and can compensate every mistake with healing. While for the ranger every mistake means another big chunk of his hp and conc pool is gone.

In this video I can see

• the so called "melee range": Just check the range of iron brow, dashing strike, jump. Or another great example at 0:48. Nothing melee about that
• wisdom healing has to be removed for pvp
• perma stuns have to be reworked

I can see a ranger with highend stats vs a DK with a suboptimal build and yet has no chance to win. And don't tell me the ranger was playing badly. He wasn't playing worse than his opponent.

 

Sorry for the misplaced american sarcasm.

Trak... It's the same thing. You can play 10 million matches and lose them all... you will still have a lot of Honor points, maybe even Master. My point is the name "Master" doesn't make sense... it doesn't matter how high your title is if you're terrible at PVP.
You can't compare players skill based on title. You can simply play more games to get to a title. Win or loose, you'll get honor points and
eventually reach a higher title. Hence: ranking is based on"games played" not skill level.

The titles where in place before they changed the skill trees... they only really let you know how many points in the skill tree someone has. Has not a thing to do with how good at PVP that player is. "Master" of dying?. it doesn't fit , it never did.

Wrong. there is obviously something wrong here. He should not stand a chance over a Field Marshal... not be "Favored"

It's like saying Manchester High school is "favored" over Manchester United, based on win/lose record.

They are not playing the same teams, they are in different leagues. In DSO there is balancing, so for the most part... a knight is not
going to be matched up against a Marshal... unless the server is empty.

Thank you for explaining the win/lose ratio deal. Now that makes more sense. But it's an early attempt to balance things out over top of an already failed system. win/lose alone is not enough to judge a players skill level. Especially because the points awarded are relatively the same even against a much higher "titled" player. Yes, I have noticed that lower titled players get a few more points than i do for killing them. That number should be much much higher.... like 10% increase per title level. That way, the truly higher skilled players advance quickly to their next title.

Furthermore, the titles don't have to be linked to skill tree. Honor points adding up for skill tree advancement should be available to all players. Some will take longer then others based on skill.

I don't know what this complicated math is that decides match making balance - but shouldn't it be the same math that decides ranking?

 

And with "Iron Brow", I think the limit has been exceeded.

Would you like the war attacks to have ZERO gamma? A sword has its own range, as well as a bow. Range of bow is greater. The difference is clear. With war, you MUST reach your opponent.

Have you ever played fighting games? Even the Zangief attacks have range, this does not make it equal to characters with Fireball. With the same range.

Even melee attacks of your Ranger have range, lol According to this reasoning, EA has the same range of Deadly Bow?

 

Thats why ranger class is named Rangers.

This is drakensang not diffrent games. dont start talk about other games wich are clearly not same as this one..

i dont see anything wrong with pvp or pve. its all about how you enter in match or gear you using. funny to see whole cry of this thread.

classballancing. devs relasing new wisdom tree and its just plain funny that they think it give ballance xD it is ballanced. just give us more gear varierty. more more more and devs gave us them but t3 basicaly and we have to farm till bleed to get agument cores so those gears are nosense anyway.

 

It won't give balance, it'll unbalance the game even more

 

In response to your "un-nerfing the SW" I agree. For one, all of sw attacks require mana. We are mana hogs. We have no sort of melee attack so when our mana runs low we have to wait to attack and that puts a sw at risk for counter attack and sw doesnt have much health or armor if they focus on damage which i think is the case for most sw. Its kill or be killed, so we opt for damage
Its pretty sad to me my sw that i have spent soooo much time on is weaker than my lvl 32 ranger in regards to amount of damage taken/given, when she was at lvl 32.

Also ive beat a couple marshal/field marshals in pvp. I was actually trying to win. and seeing as their rank was much higher just shows pvp ranking is sorely screwed up. Id expected a good fight being up against such a higher rank but no. I do not do pvp unless there is clover involved so rarely even try to fight so for me to fight and actually end up beating someone who is 'suppose' to be so much better is a tad disapppointing in how these 'marshals' and such actually get their rank.

To DSO i would love to see SW have an attack similar to rangers 'precise shot'. Yes we have frost sphere but it is a closer attack than precise shot which i feel is so much more efficient

 

Rank is meaningless in pvp now, it's just a function of the time spent doing pvp, plus all the other bonuses like mentor or premium
Once rank had a meaning, high honor level players had a big advantage in pvp, like mages with cyanite schield

SO you may enounter marshals/high rankers who do nothing but pvp
As a consequence, they do not farm in pve, they do not get gems, gliphs, pieces of equipment for crafting
And there is also the issue of former twinks leveling up to 55, those characters are weak

 

All 'high damage' attacks require Mana... but then again, that is true for all classes. Turrets cost Steam, Explosive Arrow costs Concentration, Smash takes Rage.

On the flip side of the above comment, skills that help a SW survive, especially when they've run out of mana, are skills like Frost Nova, Frost Wind, Teleport, Guardian (if appropriate skills are selected), and Ice Missile which stun, distract, escape, or slow and are all free to use with no mana cost.

 

Dont play the fool. It's obvious that DK's melee has a much larger range than its animation and larger than any ranger's melee attack. Especially when it comes to iron brow, which has an incredibly bugged high range. Your statement regarding EA/deadly blow makes absolutely no sense.

Im not saying anything has to be changed for the dk's melee attacks, i just brought it up since ppl keep insisting how hard it is as DK to catch a ranged player and that your so called "melee disadvantage" justifies exaggerated healing abilities. When looking at a DK's possibilities to buff runspeed, high melee range and catch-skills like jump and stun charge, I simply cannot agree with that statement.

As some guys have already said, it is very hard to assess the impact of these changes, so what devs should do is going for baby steps:
Remove wisdom healing for pvp. A next step could either be a skillable 1-2sec immunity pvp talent or reducing dk's stun possibilities (50% for stun charge or smth like that). Give these or similar steps a try, and if it turns out to be too much of a nerf, rebalance again.

/I've just seen the sneak preview for wisdom talents. All these changes might render our dicussion here pointless and create further imbalance with more extrema i suppose...

 

Baragain for somebody who claims that he is having a mage you seem to havent played him in 2 - 3years.
Using gurdian on pvp is a joke. Why ? 1 it is literrary a heal for the tanks since it deals low dmg and cant crit so it only fills their rage. Guardian even fire deals 15k dmg with 25 k dmg of the mage and since it cant crit is really low ( the damage is without applying resistance ,armor(since the fireballs of the giradian are half physical) or block strenght). Its good against early to mid game rangers but lategame rangers eith get free q7 use or have good hp on their pvp build and can 1 EA it to death. About dwarfs the can just anihilate it from a mile with the turrets

Second fi you dont know about yet another mage bug . If a tank uses charge whale we are using ice wind the stun is negated and we are stuned and if the mage has fast reflexions and uses frost nova its effect is also negated and it is put on a 2 second cd which is enough to be killed by the tank if you dont have insane hp or teleport up... either tune down the dmg of the skill ifit will cancel 2/3 of my defensive skills or fix ot at this state im left only with teleport to fight an instant dash..
About ice missle its a double edged sword. It is really good vs dmg classes but against tanks with keen set which gives move speed if blocked is pretty much a free move speed boost since the spell deals low amount of dmg and the tank hammer heals pretty mcuh 80 percent of its dmg + the heal skill = 0 dmg dealt to the tank f and giving him free boost to movement.

Conclusion: tanks just have all the tools to defeat every set or build that exist on the other classes. Argue as much as you like but its true.

 

BS...i get that u wanna defend your class but you are being silly...there arent any skills that help a SW survive when he runs out of mana when u compare it with someone who has unlimited stuns and unlimited hp ( or can heal til the end of times ...had to re-word it cuz ive seen that some of u guys like to turn words around xD)

Lets say that you will stun the warrior, freeze him, run from him, tell him nice things and chat with him...how are u going to kill him in 2 minutes when u as a top mage have 15k dmg with 1hand and u deal 5-10k dmg to him, dmg that he restores in few sec? U cant and u expect to "survive "as per say? For how long? Can u survive a duel like that or u meant that u could survive as a mage for a few sec with the skills that u added above?

How many top 1hand SWs do u think that can kill a 1hand top DK? Do you really bellieve that such a mystical creature exists nowadays in dso with the current balance? I guess not and u most likely know it aswell so what are we even talking about here?


You cannot compare a SW with a DK and say that SW has this + and this + because it has exactly no pluses otherwise he would be able win vs a DK.When u compare these 2 classes u should say what the warriors have 2 much of and what the mage has 2 less.At least for the time being .

Not going to comment about u saying that guardian thingy...its like u are clueless about how mages play nowadays..but anways...guardian is the best and the most op skill ingame for mages ....is that op that every warrior should talk about it...u use it..u restore your opponents HP...brilliant

 

To both of you:
My post is general in nature since there are a great many SWs who also have complaints with PvE. While guardian is only applicable in the PvE case, the rest apply to both PvP and PvE. My apologies for assuming the readers in this thread could discern the difference.

To Heror:
Regarding complaints about Frost Wind, yes, there is a cast time and it is slightly longer than the DK's charge. Well, guess what... Charge has a "cast" time too. I've lost count of how many times I've charged to get out of the way of something and either died or got stunned on the other end (not just from frost wind)... my cool down doesn't even reset.

Regarding Ice Missile, yes it is a two edged sword. But don't you have enough common sense to know when to use it and when not to use it? Or do you expect that every skill should be good in every situation against every opponent?

And your conclusion... "Tanks"... not DKs, "Tanks." A 2H DK is not a "Tank." A 2H DK doesn't stand a chance in PvP in most of the situations you describe. At those points, it usually becomes a game of "who lands the first hit." And nerfing healing will not magically balance PvP. All it will do is make a 1H DK useless for anything except boss runs and PvP will go back to being a game of pure OH-KO when the 1H DKs switch back to 2H. I guess that is a form of balance... a really stupid one. Proper balancing is much more complicated than that. All the classes need damage mitigated in PvP and not just by some flat percentage, the higher the damage, the higher the mitigation. And while we're at it, there should be HP mitigation of a similar style. In this way, the game can keep growing in PvE without PvP becoming (staying) as imbalanced as it is right now. I've discussed this many, many times before (and there are more) and unlike all the people in this thread crying "Nerf Them! Nerf Them! Buff Me! Buff Me!" I'm one of the few crazy voices that keeps saying "Balance everybody!" My suggestions for damage/HP mitigation wouldn't be the final solution, but it is a far cry better than anything the rest of the crybabies in this thread have come up with. It would need to be applied with other little things like temporary stun immunity after a stun to avoid chain stuns (in PvP and PvE) and better match making algorithms. I've been beating the drum for PvP balance longer than you've been an active poster on the forums (the oldest post referenced above dates back to October 2015; before you posted your first post about cheating in the anniversary event and before Fugnuts even joined the forums), so don't presume to lecture me on balance. My ideas would help everybody. Yours just hurt 1H DKs while ignoring all the other problems. Tell me, what does nerfing a DK's healing do for a SW fighting a RA that can one shot the SW with an unmarked EA? And what regen nerfing do for a 2H DK fighting a SMs that drop a couple ultra high damage turrets and then takes off like a bat out of hell so the DK can never catch him?

Fugnuts, See the above, especially the last paragraph. I'm not wasting any more time on you since your comments are all summed up in what I directed at Heror.

 

All of you talk about the 1v1 for 1 hand how about DK against RA or SW in 2h build? Does anyone thing that DK can get close and hit him once?
I think you all have no idea about DK in fact if it was OP all of you have DK untill now.
Again i tell you how you want to be equal with a DK if you compare aple with grapes.
Anyway i dont have time to play this game anymore and also i dont have the pleasure.
BP is a bad developer and this game has a toxic comunity, also is heavy pay to win and that is not a game anymore is more a bussines and people that pay try to nerf each others so that their money can have more value .BP take the exile path and learn that model it is more succesfuly than yours and you all that scream here try to see the big picture not only from your character perspective but if you do that then find solutions for your character improuvment.
Im disgusted and now i know that peple with your way of thinking has nerf /kill/extinct many species on this earth is just a way of living, lets kill a specie/a character type so that we can get better , is not a matter of survability for you is just a way to get better, why should you find a way to optimize and improuve yourself when is easyer to press the trigger or to spam and wine in thread.
Many can be said and done but no one can see that this game is a midget, he has the age of an adult and he grow so little but he ask so much money for development.
Nothing has change and nothing will change in this game because for this producer the only driven force is to make money that is it nothing else, he dont care about the game players or anything he want as many money he can with small resources many times walking on corpses and the corpses are players.They have said many thinghs about guild wars and so on when will this come true? When they will stop shuting down the servers to change the drop rate, when they will implement what people ask for years in creative corner.when they will act like a real producer? I guess when they will do that they will also have some quality players and comunity.
What game is this ? Ask on twitch the biggest comunity of gamers , no one will answer you and you know why?... because is a pay to win game and there are only 3 -5 streamers that stream this and usualy they dont have more that 2- 4 viewers.
Youtube is full of content from this game usualy made by kids that show bugs delete characters or show casino way to make money or maybe some revenge in pvp but they cant stream because they are not consistent .In fact it can be a succesfull game for stream since he has PVP.
BP has closed the twitch channel now they do stream on twiter and this is lame they have started this from some time and give players a bonus code for 1.5 and 5k followers but this is a bad decision like many others because this way they dont promote this game to gamers but to casual players and we all know that this game is not made for casual play.As one of my old dso coleague and friend said and i quote" people still play that game because they have invested time and money not because that game worth"
I.m done for now i will come back in this forum when BP will learn to respect players and when players like you all from here will learn how to deal with problems.
There are many to be said and there can be many discution about the game and producer but there are in vane because BP is not listen.
P.S.-What a joke with that ban wave...all exploiters are now in pvp with full runes characters, i invite you to see and old players that make pvp know what im talking about, many new strong players that i never seen before in pvp.

 

The fact that i have first posted something on the forum doesnt mean i havent read anything actively i wasnt active in posting on the forum thats it
Second why are you living in the delusion that 2h is supposed to be meta in the pvp ?Actuall pvp should be with 1 h where you can afford to take 2 or 3 hits atleast. And ive seen plenty of grand marshals tanks with 2 h using a hybrid build with block who can still deal 70k using charge with 120k hp so it seems that you just dont have the stats to play this way so i dont think you have a reason to complain ..

Second:I dont know about what cast time you speak about charge but it is an "instant" dash it may have recovery time after usage but it has no delay while cast you litterary dash the moment you click it ? idk am i at a mistake but im pretty sure there isnt cast time i have even tried it out with my tank

 

It is true that mages in pve are the worst by far , cause they miss a damage dealing skill that it would be useful only in pve. When it comes to pve , dwarfs and wariors are the best in all aspects (group , solo ).

It is commonly known that Mages for all rpj games are a classical damage dealer class that only specialize in brute force damage , that it must be done in dso too. Rangers must specialize in mobility and avoidance first and less in brute force damage, i mean rangers class should deal huge dmg only if they succeed on doing their compos (EA deals 500% dmg when marked = compo succeed , EA should deal 100% dmg when unmarked = no compo succeed and not 350% as it does now allowing them to 1 hit ko most of the players).

The problem with mages is that their really good damage dealing skills (like lazer beam, meteor) are really hard to succeed in pvp, making them useless in practice so they only use fireballs (fireball is a skill , as i stated on other post, that its fine that is not dealing huge dmg cause of its advantage in mana and accuracy). That doesnt mean fireball is enough for mages to be good at pvp. Fireball is super good for low resistance players ( 2 handed users with really good dmg but low hp ) but is useless for strong defence tanks. Here is the problem, in order to ninja kill a healing tank, mages need a practical destructive skill or compo , while rangers can do that.

Another problem with mages is their 1 handed version. At past maybe it was good cause of hp reg runes but now totally useless in all aspects. Ofc the solution is not to remove warior hp reg skill , this could lead in a totally unbalance for 1 handed wariors. I think that a good solution could be to put in all classes hp reg skills or passive constant hp reg from wisdom tree (this will be added in future) so 1 handed mages or rangers would have a chance fighting 1 handed wariors.

In conclusion, dso pvp system have some unbalances but i have to state that this game provide a good balancing pvp system in general, o yes it does. Even if we have our issues in this game here, we must be more realistic and have a wider optical of things and make a comparison look on other mmo games too in order to become wiser. There is not a game that has an 100% balanced pvp system. That doesnt mean that we must not try to find solutions in order to balance the pvp system as much we can , but we must try find good solutions and not cry all the time just asking a straightforward nerf of tanks or EA for examble, cause this could lead in a new unbalance state and so on.... Only well thought studied suggestions can go us ahead.

 

Have you tried using it on inf2 -3 maps and see how long it lasts there? Talking about the guardian.For someone who is lvl 55 and farms only inf2 and above the guardian is a dead skill.Mind ctrl-ing an enemy and have him pull aggro is the solution for high infernals.In pvp the guardian is also a dead skill for the reasons ive mentioned in my previous post.You cannot use guardian as your escape pod on high infernals because it dies as soon as you summon it. And besides if u run out of mana u wont be able to summon it in the first place because it costs 45 mana (unless u spend 2 points on it just to have a 0.1 sec escape solution).Not sure how many mages would add 2 points on that skill for that reason alone.


The dmg and hp mitigation idea sounds like a good idea but most likely wont ever happen because of how much work has to be put in it.Besides, they were already working on their new skill tree so for a year or two there wont be much complaining on forums until we max our skills again.Then they will increase the lvl cap and have another 2 years of peace xD..then repeat.It was like this since DSO made it on the market...increase lvl cap then change skill tree and repeat.It was their idea of fixing the balance and never worked.

Also "dmg and hp mitigation" is a fancy wording for nerfing everyone. Dmg will be nerfed, hp will be nerfed, even the regenerations will be nerfed. It is a good idea, dont get me wrong , but so is buffing the weak classes to be competitive...like increasing the hp of some classes, their dmg and skill dmg (talking about SWs here).I prefer the buff the weak classes idea instead of nerfing everyone just because 1 class is too strong.